Questioning Canon

[llaeyro]

So generally, I'm all for sticking to canon when it comes to potion, spell and creature lore etc. I may embellish, I may invent extras, but I will not fundamentally change or ignore what is there. For example, J.K says silver doesn't affect werewolves (other than being essential to seal the initial bite and prevent death). So in my HP fiction, silver doesn't affect werewolves. Even if it would have been convenient to my plot.

I've now come across a sticking point. Googling and wikia didn't satisfy me, so I went and got the books out for this one. I still wasn't happy with the answer!

So basically, I'm talking viewing other people's memories. Whether through Legilimency or by using a Pensieve. I'm just going to ignore the fact that, realistically, memories don't stay crisp, clear and precise over time, and do not always run chronologically.

In my opinion, memories should logically be viewed in first person. If we are viewing Harry's memory of his mother's murder, we would see it through the bars of his cot. We would not see Harry's face (unless there happened to be a mirror nearby) as Harry is unaware of what he looked like at that exact moment in time. It's his memory, therefore his perspective. We would be looking through his eyes. We would see what he saw and feel what he felt. Also, if we were to try and go downstairs in Harry's memory, we would not be able to, because he didn't.

Canon says otherwise. The first scene I reviewed is when Harry casts a Protego during Occlumency lessons and accidentally enters Snape's mind. It is described that Harry sees a 'small, dark-haired boy', a 'greasy-haired teenager' and a 'scrawny boy'. Okay, so definitely third person view.

That I can deal with. Not so much with the next bit.

Harry sneaks a peak into Snape's Pensieve, viewing Snape's memories. He is standing in front of Snape, who's got his nose stuck firmly in his exam paper. At this point, Harry wanders off, examining the expressions of students. Snape is not only not looking up throughout the exam, he wouldn't be able to see those expressions even if he did look up. Harry can even read what James is doodling on a spare bit of parchment. When they leave the exam, Harry walks between Snape and the Marauders to eavesdrop. They are discussing Remus's furry little problem, so they must be out of earshot of people in the memory, including Snape. So if Snape couldn't hear them, how the hell can Snape's memory show Harry what they were saying?!

I haven't got access to all of my books right now, so this is just based on the relevant scenes I remember in OotP. I can admit it was nice for Harry to get a proper look at James and Sirius when they were his age. It also gave us a chance to understand Severus a bit better, by seeing for ourselves that he was treated viciously out of sheer boredom.

However, I feel really sad to be restricted to a third person narrative with unrestricted detail when writing memories in fandom. By letting the viewer move freely around the memory, you take away the potential insight they could gain by seeing the memory through the owner's eyes. The viewer is missing out on all the smells, emotions and thoughts linked to that memory.

Does anyone have any examples from canon with a different take on viewing a memory?

Do you think that J.K missed a trick here, or that her chosen style added to the story? Or maybe it was just a lazy plot device that she didn't spend enough time thinking through.

I'm interested to read what you think =)

ETA:

A few comments have made me realise that I was remiss in not looking up Harry's first experience of a Pensieve and the explanation that came with it.
torino10154 reminded me:

Strictly speaking, the cool thing about viewing memories in a Pensieve (as opposed to during Legilimency) is that they are 3rd person, objective, and without bias.

smirkingcat made an interesting observation which expanded on this:

because we know we see way more than we realise, and we also hear more than we know, but our brains filter out what we deem important, so maybe we can say like the magic expands the field of awareness and the magic of the pensive enhances that and show all that the wizard missed...

Comments

[vaysh]

Would it be to link to this post in the daily_snitch? :)

[llaeyro]

Ooh that would be awesome! I do hope to get a discussion going, so the more the merrier, thank you =)

[vaysh]

Great. :D

[torino10154]

Strictly speaking, the cool thing about viewing memories in a Pensieve (as opposed to during Legilimency) is that they are 3rd person, objective, and without bias.

If the memory is taking place via Legilimency, then it should be the person's actual memory, which is their 1st person perspective...unless it too is somewhat of a movie reel playing out in front of the person. That's the trouble with magic. It doesn't always work the way "logic" would dictate.

As for hearing things Snape couldn't have possible heard, that isn't logical and I do have more difficulty understanding how it's possible. It seems like they should almost just have their mouths move but he can't understand them.

You might also look at what Snape says about Legilimency and Occlumency, because he does talk about what can be gleaned that way, which might help you. I believe it comes down to using your emotions to get you to think of the relevant memory, not that the memories themselves show emotions.

[llaeyro]

Snape wasn't even looking at them at the time. It's possible he was entirely unaware of their presence nearby.

The quotes regarding Legilimency and Occlumency that I've found online and in the passages I remembered and went searching for are rather vague. Severus waxes lyrical about what Legilimency isn't and makes only sweeping generalisations about what it is. Harry describes images 'racing through his mind like a flickering film' when Snape is riffling through them. The descriptions of what Harry sees when Snape looks into his mind could be any POV, but when he accidentally breaches Snape's mind it's unmistakably 3rd person.

Snape seems to suggest that the Legilimens can use the emotional reactions of the victim to hone in on particular memories. For example, if they start to feel panicked, the memory which initiated that feeling is likely to be worth a look. I suppose that could indicate that a Legilimens can detect current emotional changes, if not the emotions that were experienced at the time the memory was made. This still gives a good opportunity for additional insight, as the replaying of the memory is likely to stir up current emotions in the victim. I think I'll cling to this theory!

It could be deduced that J.K wanted Snape to be vague about the precise nature of Legilimency and Occlumency to add to Harry's frustration during lessons. He expects a lot from him without giving him much to work with. The more I delve though, the more I wonder if the main purpose of the ambiguity was to give J.K extra wiggle room when answering difficult questions from the fans like me who read too far into fictional things x)

Thank you for pitching in! You've prompted some interesting new thoughts.

[smirkingcat.livejournal.com]

i can live with the idea of the pensive making seen what is unseen- like it is described as a method to step away from all the emotions and the turmoil-as torino states before me- so i can also agree that maybe the magic saw and the pensive makes it seen - because we know we see way more than we realise, and we also hear more than we know, but our brains filters out what we deem important, so maybe we can say like the magic expands the field of awareness and the magic of the pensive enhances that and show all that the wizard missed...

but i agree with you that the legilimens is a cheap way to show the reader some backstory which other way wouldnt have been there- because how?
all the ppl were so busy with telling harry how awesome his father was?

i can live with it and since as a writer i bend the canon as much as i like and do what i want i dont really concern myself that much with cannon- but the question itself is rather interesting

[llaeyro]

Yes, I didn't look up Harry's first experience of Pensieves, so I had sort of forgotten that they were set up as being useful for objectivity. And I do like your idea about the magic being aware of things beyond the wizard/witch's notice, which is in turn enhanced by the Pensieve. Head canon applied ;)

I understand the need for Legilimency, and I love that Harry (and by extension, we) got that opportunity to see Snape's past. However, I can't see why, with a bit of tweaking, she couldn't have portrayed the glimpses of Snape's childhood from a first person perspective. I admit it is quicker to mention Snape's appearance--the reader can deduce a lot from a little that way--but it really doesn't seem that difficult.

I like people adding to the HP universe, whether it's spells, places, characters, creatures, whatever. I do think there is a point though where, if you change fundamental aspects of the lore behind magical practices, I begin to wonder why we're still calling it HP. If it's very IC, and the changes serve a purpose and are warned for, then I don't necessarily mind. It's more when I stumble across something which contradicts canon and start to wonder if the author even bothered doing any research!

Thank you for your thoughts =)

[smirkingcat.livejournal.com]

sorry for the late reply :( time is not in abundance

thanks for the applied headcanon - and it really works since it has a little bit of applied science in it- we see far more than we realize (thats why vids of daily normal lives can be amazing- not the ups something went wrong but just the normal lives)

and i'm sure there would have been a better option to it all- when i think of legillimence i think of it like opening a book- so maybe that will help you- like those 3d books? that the spell makes the caster step into the memory and is therefore able to look around- because he is not the one experiencing it, but he is viewing it- like calling it to the front and while the one being read upon is experiencing the memory, the caster himself only sees it from the outside- because the one being cast upon is STILL there- so where would he go if not back into his memory for real; and then my head canon and because i could not make sense of it all, the caster can read the emotions because of the spell, thats why its such an evasive spell- it showes the feelings too...

as for canon: it depends what you view as canon: for me canon ends with the books and the movies, but that might be because i come originally from japanese fandoms and they play by different rules- to me the whole pottermore thing and everything else is FAN-WORK by jkr,
as for research- i'm doing a thing were wandlore is incredible important, but i'm not turning to her opinions on that - because its not really in the books, besides the few statements of olivander and mr lovegood, but on the celtic myths about threes
so i too can live with fics being researched in different ways- as long as the story's inner logic is working its working for me but that might be just me :D